The line is less than ideal when Broadsheet talks to Fran Lebowitz over the phone. “It's not going to be great, I can tell you that. But I can hear you,” the famed New Yorker says, in her signature frank style.
Lebowitz, who will visit Australia in February for a series of talks in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, is calling in from her New York City apartment. As a cultural icon and respected social commentator, Lebowitz has long been a prominent figure, but she’s received even more attention since she appeared as the subject of the 2021 Martin Scorsese-directed Netflix series Pretend It’s a City (a follow-up to the director’s 2010 Lebowitz doc, Public Speaking).
Ahead of her first visit to Australia since 2018, Lebowitz gave us her thoughts on restaurant fanatics, Taylor Swift, perceptions of elitism in the arts versus in sports, plus more.
It's so hard to picture you outside of New York. What do you do when you land in a new place?
I travel a huge amount to do the speaking engagements, but I’m in these places so briefly. I mean, there’re some places that I’m in just one night. I get there at night, I go to the hotel, I go to the theatre, I leave the theatre, I go to the hotel, I leave. Sometimes I leave right after the theatre.
What I really liked about Melbourne was that there were a lot of places open late. And that is really uncommon. I don’t remember the name of the man who escorted me, who maybe worked for the theatre, but when I was finished with the theatre – which was pretty late, I don’t remember exactly, but it was probably around 11 o’clock – he said, “Do you want to get something to eat?” And there were like 70,000 places to choose from.
Do you remember where you ate?
Well, first of all, remember would probably not even be the right word. I probably didn’t even know the name of the place. Because this guy was from [Melbourne], he also was one of these restaurant fanatics, so he had a number of possibilities. It was really good, I do remember that.
Are you a restaurant fanatic?
No. I’m not. I have a lot of friends here [in New York] who are restaurant lunatics. Fanatic is not even the proper word. And I would say, “Just choose a place, tell me where.”
I don’t want to choose restaurants. I love restaurants because I hate to cook. It’s not that I don’t like restaurants. It’s that I don't want the responsibility of choosing them. I don’t even want the effort of choosing them. I’m incredibly lazy. So, you know, just tell me where it is and I’ll meet you there.
Are you a late-night eater?
I prefer it, yes, I absolutely do. There is a trend here for people to eat early now. Especially people who are young. The people who are in their twenties, some of whom I know, will say, “Do you wanna do dinner? How ‘bout 6.30?” I say, “No, that’s lunch.”
I think it's because it's so hard to get a reservation, right?
You know, not for me.
The weekend that you're in Melbourne is the same weekend that Taylor Swift is going to be here.
I did not know that. I hope she’s not too worried.
Are you going to try to snag some tickets?
No, I am not. From what I read about Taylor Swift, they’re probably already lined up outside to see her, but I will not be counted among them. I don’t dislike Taylor Swift. Truthfully, I probably know less about Taylor Swift than anyone on the planet Earth.
I have nothing against her. I have nothing for her. I just don’t care.
She’s going to be playing in a football stadium.
I mean, big musical acts play stadiums here too. They always have, long before there was a Taylor Swift. I don’t want to be on record as saying something that is possibly not true, but I’m almost 100 per cent positive that no writer has ever filled a football stadium by talking. So, I do not feel competitive with Taylor Swift.
There’s a talk that you gave about ballet at the Whitney Museum, where you spoke about the importance for artists and performers to have really discerning audiences.
You know what that was, the first time I am aware of talking about that was in a movie that Marty [Martin Scorsese] made about me called Public Speaking. So, possibly, I was at the Whitney and someone asked me about that.
I’m curious to know if you have any advice for artists, especially those who live in cities that don’t necessarily have audiences that are super familiar with their craft, about how they can improve and push themselves.
You know, it’s not exactly the same thing. Because, originally, I was talking about AIDS.
When the big giant-like wave of AIDS occurred, people talked about, afterwards, how many artists died. A great number of very important artists died. But no one ever talked about the audience that died. You know, that was a very discerning audience cohort. And I chose New York City Ballet because in the ’70s, in the ’80s, the New York City Ballet was, without question, the most important cultural institution in the country. And the ballet fans were so extreme. I would have to use the word rabid.
I went to the ballet all the time. At intermission, you would hear these guys talking about – you know, Suzanne Farrell was dancing then – “Suzanne. She put her finger like this, instead of like this. Do you think she has a cold?” And I did not know Suzanne Farrell, but I always felt, “She knows those guys are out there.” And I am certain that it drove her to better performances, although I am certain that it was also not very pleasant. Knowing that you have a knowledgeable audience – and I don’t mean just knowledgeable about your work, but, in general, a very discerning audience – I’m certain is good for artists.
On the other hand, we do not live in that era at all. We live in an exact opposite era now, where everyone is an artist, everyone is great, everyone should be encouraged, everyone should do whatever they want and there’s no such thing as good or bad. However, that’s not me.
Do you think everyone is an artist?
No.
I mean, anyone can make art, I wouldn't prohibit people from making art. I just would say not everyone’s good.
It’s so interesting, because there is – in this country, anyway – there’s this side that says, “People who care about this kind of thing, or make these judgments, are elitist.” And there’s a hatred of this elitism. But the truth is, there is a love of elitism in sports. They constantly talk about elite athletes, how great they are, they love them. The same people who think you shouldn’t be elitist about art. So, all that [elite] means is, you’re very good.
I mean, people are very happy to say someone is a great football player or a great basketball player. They don’t think everyone could be a great basketball player – because they can’t. And there is a love of greatness in sports from a huge number of people in this country, but many of those sports fans are angry about the idea that there is what they call “elitism” in the arts. But it’s the same thing: some people are very good and some aren’t.
Why do you think that is?
To me, it’s kind of not a really good word to use. Because the word “elite” also has other connotations – connotations of snobbery and things like that. But there’s a sports snobbery, that's what that is. So, I feel certain kinds of snobbery are okay. It’s okay to say, “This person is very good at this.” It’s not okay to say, “This is a better person, because this person is this class or race or religion.” No, of course not.
You’re always doing so many things. How do you sustain such a busy life?
Coffee.
You know, when you have a speaking date, you have a rider that says what has to be in your dressing-room. Mine basically says 150 gallons of coffee.
